Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? So these people have a high tolerance for alcohol, habitually drink large amounts on a regular basis and your first impression is that they may not be alcoholics? My cousin and wife were heroin addicts, their children suffered from neglect, were removed to foster homes.damage done. Usually that requirement is listed in the sentencing. Once again, I am proven wrong. To say that I am very very concerned for the children hes given drink to, and his own children as well, is a huge understatement. Leaders can fail, like David, dont you know? It is always a pleasure to read her advice on legal/medical/mental matters, as her experience clearly shows. And let me say one more time-you are so good at this kind of thing. a hospital detox AND good psychiatric care are NOT the same thing as enabling because they are designed to STOP the status quo In my case alky is the term we commonly used at CR. the process that you just described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4. Through thick and thin just be there, as you spoke of. RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. Scroll down to the bottom of the post. and wasnt he the one who had advocated that Christians (his version of it) should watch filthy movies and so on? They see insult where none was intended, and are quick to react and hurl barbs and insults in retaliation. In my family, there was a sudden death and one of the parents reacted with extremely heavy drinking (binge) and ended up with delirium, shaking, and experiencing auditory hallucinations and feelings of being persecuted a psychotic break. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Should American reformed pastors who are exhibiting chronic alcohol issues be suspended or put on sabbatical from the duties of the pulpit until proper medical treatment has been satisfied and consistently verified? If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. Why do so many people not realize they are doing what Paul refers to here in II Cor 11 19-21: For you, being so wise, tolerate the foolish gladly. I am glad for your growth that you have shared with us from codependency that your mother taught you that you had to do, something she apparently learned to survive. In fact, in my post there last Monday I express outrage about how PCA churches are often excommunicating victims of domestic abuse for divorcing their abusers. That is also comparing apples to oranges. (caps and emphasis intended). I was only thinking of verse 11. To me, the urgency should be to get him out of ministry leadership entirely. 1. repetitive and in a rut True. They know theyre drunk so they slow way down, and this gives them away. i wish this werent so. We ran this support group for 16 years. 721 Smith Rd. For those who care about womens issues it was an all female surgical team. But interventions and treatment does work. Her main mistake, perhaps, was not adding more context to indicate that the kicking out was not due *only* to the alcoholism. No one has said we shouldnt try. And yes, I read the story above about the alcoholic lady who died, and her church paid for her funeral. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. I drove to the hospital right after shutting off the gas and water at our house. I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? Anyway. When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. Just because this was his first arrest dont assume that this was the first time he did it. I did read your post, Daisy. She was in a very fragile place. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Obviously, I dont know what goes on behind closed doors. If RC Jr could have legally used the rack at St. Peter Presbyterian Im confident he would have, at the very least, held out the threat of its use. As a matter of fact, I could have ended my life over what my abusive church did to me in excommunicating and shunning me. u%\la7vQ8V$=SDkMZjDGZ1Ma-=X|P)qJ-ck`koxRx^D"N;~*;('q. The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. Clearly. To simply kick them out, in my opinion, is wrong. You yourself are stuck in a rut and go over the same things over and over again. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. Velour, you are assuming Barbara is saying that based on his alcoholism. Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. When she died, the church (silently) bore all the funeral costs. Im not giving him a pass on any abusive behavior. Velour wrote: While Intox or Controlled Substance: Passenger Under 18. I learned at an early age that it can be DEADLY!!! to exercise unusual control over parishioners personal lives . I was looking for that recently. I wasnt talking about you or about what you said. I even pointed out that books BY people who are MHPs themselves mention cautions to their readers to be careful when doctor shopping because, they say, some MHPs are inept or charlatans. It is not predestined it is chosen. Am still reading through the comment thread. I was very clear that R.C. Which is sad & lonely. Tragedy does not cause alcoholism. It certainly was not just a church thing, it was a cultural thing. Mark my words, it will happen. We all grieve over our grown children when they inflict pain on themselves and others knowing that most of the time our help is rejected. I hope his (second) wife and children get help to take care of themselves around his alcoholism and learn how to set boundaries with him. While I appreciate your heartfelt comment, I am compelled to share a tragic and devastating childhood experience with you. Abuse is a different issue. ALL FAKE NEWS. The next tweet shows a message from Pine Hills Church when I inquired if their church is charismatic and asked about the denomination. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. It runs in the family and has only one Redemptive Hope for each and all who hear the Gospel and by Grace and through Faith put their full Hope in the Righteousness of Christ to Cover (atone for) all mysin or your sin. Those two do not go together. I have been concerned for some time, like you, about her banning codependency terminology, which is helpful in describing the dynamics in many families. Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. . I offered H.A. Alcohol abuse has played a part in that, yes, but RC Jr would have still been a spiritual bully and done the same things had he been a teetotaler too. What does that mean? A very good article by a Christian woman named Heather who is also a recovering alcoholic. To have her fall stark naked in front of you and others? They generally avoided RC Jr like the plague. And I have contempt when people excuse and tolerate and make excuses for substance abuse of any kind; that helps no one. And it made us see that the pain we had experienced with our oldest son could be used for good.href=#comment-329312 title=Go to comment of this author>Velour: Your situation reminds us that there are excuses and there are reasons and your real anxiety over your daughters illness was a REASON, not an excuse for medicating .. you were right to get help and thank God you did. RC Sproul Sr-time to protect those grandchildren. He is going to end up dead or lifelong in prison if he does not get serious help, and the fact that his family and colleagues contribute to his continued drinking behavior implicates them as well. Theres a lot in the Bible, not just one verse. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. This we can all agree on. In very pious terms of course. That is wrong. Finally, you and I have different theological perspectives about how to handle people with addictions in the church. I would dearly love to avoid the aforesaid black hole, and so I wont attach this point to any particular name, but I agree with it: if indeed Mr Sprouls executive oversight of the organisation is as it has been described here, then alcohol is one more reason he needs to be removed, not just as CEO, but from membership of the organisation. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. In the 12-point plans that are out there, an alcoholic would do well to pick Jesus as his higher power. You would think a preacher would have that figured out. And I mentioned several times RC2s behavior that justifies him being put out. As you and I discussed here yesterday, I am in agreement that Sproul Jr. should be terminated from his job because he is unfit. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. And lots and lots of other things that are common problems in alcoholics. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Velour, that person you know may believe that we banned her from A Cry For Justice. So, his alcoholism caught up with him. I think this is the belief of the Ligonier teacher R.C. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. The addict builds up a tolerance over time, needing more and more to get the same good feeling that theyre seeking. Would it help your perspective any to know that RC Jr has unjustly excommunicated entire families, and were not just talking a few, including small children, for the alleged sins of their parents? The only place that seems to have stayed on top of giving updates has been the Spinderella Sproul blog, the same blog you linked to in your original post. Awful. 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. I guess maybe thats how this crazy high drinking starts, but imagine drinking a case or two of beer in a day? When you spend so much of your life covering up sins, Im sure there is a need to numb that kind of pain. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. As word of these charges spread a number of other former members of St. Peter Presbyterian Church also stepped forward and corroborated the allegations, including the fact that some of their own children had been plied with alcohol without their consent. Im a parent, and not all of my children have always made me very proud of them. No. RC2 is doing this having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Paul said in this same verse to Avoid such people.. Here it is again: There are some here who advocate kicking addicts/alcoholics out of the church. I do wonder why so many people continue to support R.C. I guess in a way it is a statement that is all some can make at the time, but they do it anyway. Because I have had my nose rubbed in Sproul Jrs teaching for a couple of decades, I took my own understanding from what she said, quite the opposite of the one you seem to have taken. Sproul is with the Lord now. Im not expert enough to know what the truth is in that area. Okrapod is a doctor and I work in mental health. Vesta Voorhis Becomes Bride The Pittsburgh Press (6/13/1960) Bang head on table. This assumes that the prior trauma is causing the current opinion, which may or may not be the case, and it assumes that the idea (water) is drawn from a poisoned well (someone with prior trauma) and therefore is tainted not because of what is said but rather because of who said it. Will he receive it? Sproul Jr.s abuses of power, spiritual abuse, and excommunications and shunnings of people. Its a much more complicated issue than that. Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? Why dont you take a break from the put downs of other people like me, telling us what to do, how to think, how to feel, and that were not entitled to our opinions? He took me home. Alcoholism is an excuse to drink and every alcoholic in the world usually tries to find an excuse to drink. Christiane wrote: No one would have faulted Sproul for signing up for an eHarmony or Christian Mingle account. Answer to God. In fact most drunk drivers are pulled over by the police not because theyre driving recklessly, but because theyre driving abnormally slow. I think a spouse should leave and take the children (better yet kick the addict out of the house) I have seen people who lose their family and job recover and then the family can be restored. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! However, it is not the same as a disease which is not brought on by the choice of behavior. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. Come to think of it, Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. The same woman surgeon from before and a woman anesthesiologist and more women in scrubs packed into the OR than I thought necessary-but they have their reasons. Remember Ashley Madison? Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Yes, it would be nice to if Lisa would clarify what she knows about the kind of counseling that R.C. You sure about that? Church Discipline The Sprouls lived in an extremely rural town called Mendota. If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. I need to verify you are who you say you are, but will respect your privacy. Yet while Scripture condemns drunkenness, it nowhere says that consuming strong drink is in itself evil. Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (ne Yardis) Sproul. So, perhaps Paul is assuming that we need to put resources on the brothers and sisters that are really asking for help. Ive read a lot of pushback to AAs all or nothing approach recently. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. It was obvious that the other poster had replied out of their own painful experience. The pejoratives about alkies (theyre called alcoholics) and other put downs (my reading comprehension for instance, etc. Its rude. Everyone has a personal sin story and can relate to being separated from God at one time or another, but to take advantage of that personal sin account without repentance and restoration of important family/friend relationships makes Gods grace cheap. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. If they carry their lunch is there a bit of the recipe in their thermos? I am sorry to hear this. RC Sproul passed on, aged 78 years, on 14th December 2017. Im fortunate in that my Dad did get sober via AA. I learned an important lesson while working in an alcoholic hospital when I was young. But I have a lot of sympathy for his kids/family, and hope he gets help for their sakes. Covering up sins, im sure there is a statement that is all some can make the. Site we will assume that this was his first arrest dont assume that you are but! 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