I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. Well, not necessarily. Give me a second here. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . All right. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. Jesus does not rebuke her. I run morning podcasts here on locals. Yeah. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. And they talks about how they offered cakes on alters to Mary. Some of the ways Trent and I would agree that a dogma contradicts scripture is explicitly, implicitly, or partially. Thats just how debates work. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? Your generous donations are tax-deductible. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. Those are both problematic. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. So my quick mini rebuttal. Jesus Christ did not inherit original sin, but he became sin which is why the father had to turn away from him. Okay, Trent. It says that, actually, I believe in First Corinthians. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. We wouldnt expect it. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? You mean the son of John? We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. The Greek grammarian Bill Mounce, who writes a whole textbook on Ancient Greek, says that adelphi means, sister, near kinswoman, or female relative. When it comes to [Greek 00:39:49], I already showed that both in the Septuagint and also in contemporary literature, it does not require a reversal of condition, so it can be used here in Matthew 1:25 in this way. There is an article, I might share this soon, by a Catholic philosopher, Jack Mulder, where he talks about, Mary being immaculate conceived, its fitting and may be required because that way, Mary is perfectly able to consent to become pregnant with our savior. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? My first book is about not really of us, why do children of Christian parents abandon the faith? We should only offer that to the father and the holy sacrifice of the mass. September 16, 2018 by Randal. Mary always leads us to her son. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . Thank you very much. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. H. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. This is hard, isnt it? But even at that, the Greek word for adelphi, in the Old Testament, when its used, its used even in a translation, not to mean anything other than a biological sister or a believing sister, like the sister nations of Israel and Judah. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Thats just being read into the text. Were going to be taking those questions. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. How do we know theyre brothers? I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. Thats kind of hard. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. I do talk about how much evidence that Greek word has for the immaculate conception, and I also note in my book its use in the Book of Sirach. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. Okay. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. Yeah. I will click the four-minute mark. Trace and Steve both share their thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin and Wyoming's friendly Blockchain laws. I have also appeared several And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. Thats not true. I would say that Steves comment, well, I dont think that the church is just a collection of believers and I dont think that the church ceases to exist. But that is simply not the case. The Bible does describe a group of people as the brethren of the Lord but it doesnt say that these people were Jesuss biological siblings through Mary. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. Facebook The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. Be sure to check out Steve's speech at Wyohackathon.io it was a very interesting talk about the history of money. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. Even if God had given you special graces so that you could follow his law, it wouldnt follow that God was also calling you to do something unprecedented in salvation history like to give birth to the Messiah. So Im well aware of that. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. Christie then nailed a 46-yard field goal in overtime, giving the Bills their third victory of the season. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. I will take away their sins. like conceived, why would Joseph and their kinsfolk who knew her think that her pregnancy was a result of adultery? If I could just. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. What about after the apostolic age? I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. She would have to have a heavenly body. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. Eventually they stopped attending church "because of the shallowness of what we found," Steve Ray said. Good to hear from you again. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. Oh, absolutely. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? He became sin for us. And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? Im not alone in believing this. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. SeanMcDowell.org. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. What about the deuterocanonical books of Scripture written in the 400 years before Christs birth? Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Sure. This is an example of eisegesis and known as a typology thats used a lot of times by Catholic apologists. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. 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